Pseudoscience and carpet cleaning...

[Mikey P]

According to GPT,

A system of beliefs, theories, or practices that claims to be scientific and factual but lacks the evidence, methodology, or principles of legitimate science.

Key Characteristics of Pseudoscience:​

• Lacks empirical support: Not backed by controlled, repeatable experiments or peer review.
• Does not follow the scientific method: Relies on anecdotal evidence, vague claims, or emotional appeals.
• Cannot be reliably tested or falsified: The claims are often too broad, vague, or flexible to be proven wrong.
• Resists correction or criticism: Proponents often dismiss valid scientific objections or ignore contrary evidence.
• Uses scientific-sounding language: To appear credible while lacking true scientific foundation.

• Examples include astrology, homeopathy, and many "miracle" health products without clinical validation.
  
  
  So with that, what elements of our industry relies on or is based on Pseudoscience
  
  I'll toss some out there to get this conversation going...
  
  
  
  
• 4 to the Door or 2.5 hose
• TACT/CHAT
• Wand jetting- flow, number of jets, distance from carpet etc
• Deep flushing for urine removal
• Peroxide effectiveness on germ removal
• Enzymes effectiveness on germ removal

 

[Jim Pemberton]

This one faded from view a few decades back:

The "Arrhenius rule" is a simplification of the Arrhenius equation, which states that for many chemical reactions, the reaction rate roughly doubles for every 10 degree Celsius (or Kelvin) increase in temperature. This rule of thumb is often used as a quick check for calculations involving the Arrhenius equation, though it's not always perfectly accurate


This was translated as:

"Every 18 degrees over 118 (how that conversion came about I'm not sure) cleaning power doubles"

The truck mount guys with fuel burners (Steamway and Prochem) and the upholstery cleaning equipment manufacturer (Kleenrite) used this extensively to sell their machines, and it made its way into IICRC classes.

The only way this really applies to what we do is how oxidizers and reducers work on stains.

 

[Jim Pemberton]

Another one related to heat:

"Cleaning with temperatures over 212 f sanitizes carpet"

To do this you would have to:

1. Have a temperature of 212 hit the carpet. Since temperature sensors on machines are read at the hottest spot of water in the equipment system, it doesn't account for the cooling effect of last step chemical injections (usually drops about 20 f), then the heat loss through hoses and fittings, and especially the heat loss that occurs once the cleaning solution exits the wand jets until the solution hits the carpet.

2. Then IF (a big IF) the cleaning solution hitting the carpet is still over 212 f, it would need to remain at that temperature for a full minute. The vacuum pass of the cleaning tool rapidly cools the carpet at that point, so this is nearly impossible to acheive.

It is far more likely that by warming the carpet during the hot water extraction process, the water and unremoved contaminants would now experience accelerated microbial growth.

This is evident when post cleaning odors occur where animal hair is present, as one example.

 

[D Luke]

Hole glides lead to faster dry times.

 

[Mikey P]

Another one related to heat:

"Cleaning with temperatures over 212 f sanitizes carpet"

To do this you would have to:

1. Have a temperature of 212 hit the carpet. Since temperature sensors on machines are read at the hottest spot of water in the equipment system, it doesn't account for the cooling effect of last step chemical injections (usually drops about 20 f), then the heat loss through hoses and fittings, and especially the heat loss that occurs once the cleaning solution exits the wand jets until the solution hits the carpet.

2. Then IF (a big IF) the cleaning solution hitting the carpet is still over 212 f, it would need to remain at that temperature for a full minute. The vacuum pass of the cleaning tool rapidly cools the carpet at that point, so this is nearly impossible to acheive.

It is far more likely that by warming the carpet during the hot water extraction process, the water and unremoved contaminants would now experience accelerated microbial growth.

This is evident when post cleaning odors occur where animal hair is present, as one example.

An Aerotech and a Rotovac could accomplish that...

 

[Mikey P]

Hole glides lead to faster dry times.

Spoken like a true non vacuumer....

 

[D Luke]

Spoken like a true non vacuumer....

Trust the science, bro!

 

[Jim Pemberton]

An Aerotech and a Rotovac could accomplish that...

That depends on the chemical injection.

Back when the IICRC and Dupont were working on the temperature restrictions on cleaning stain resistant nylon, there were concerns that rotary jet extractors hovering in one area for an extended time might exceed 180 on the carpet face.

I still doubt it can reach the level to kill bacteria

But my doubts don't matter; this is where independent testing would be needed to make that powerful a claim.

 

[Jack Zipper Zerkie]

With most customers the eyes and the nose make the final decision

 

[Jim Pemberton]

OK here's a thought on CHAT/TACT

TACT: Time, Agitation, Chemical, and Temperature (or Chemical, Heat, Agitation, and Time for CHAT) are all based on "Sinner's Circle", which has nothing to do with immoral behavior in people, but instead was named after Herbert Sinner, a German scientist.

It is generally explained in a way that covers "Dwell Time", "Mechanical Action", "Chemicals (as in any cleaning compound) and Temperature.

However, Sinner's conclusions were based on an early study where the "mechanical action" was the actual activity of surfactants and solvents as they either suspended or dissolved substances, and the "chemical" part was chemical actions and reactions, such as oxidation and redution.

That said, the way Dr Sinner interpreted it is useful for the cleaning industry, and the results of the proper use of the concept helps greatly in acheiving the best of results in cleaning.

 

[sassyotto]

Every 18 degrees over 118 (how that conversion came about I'm not sure) cleaning power doubles

can someone please define cleaning power

 

[Jim Pemberton]

can someone please define cleaning power

That was the thing, there was no true scientific definition. Since hot water cleans better, people just assumed it had to be true.

 

[BIG WOOD]

Using the term "prespray"

idiots

 

[Mikey P]

Using the term "prespray"

idiots

Star another thread there big guy..

"Silly idioms of the industry"

 

[Jim Pemberton]

Star another thread there big guy..

"Silly idioms of the industry"

Please do that Matt

I have a list!

 

[Mikey P]

Fyi, Jeff Cross will be interviewing me in a video series with the IICRC on the topic of "what is clean"

I'll be using the content in this thread along with the idiom thread to help make my point of it all being subjective to our own perceptions.

I'll be leaning heavy on my "don't be a hero based on your own (mis) understanding and over clean people's floors"..

 

[Cleanworks]

Fyi, Jeff Cross will be interviewing me in a video series with the IICRC on the topic of "what is clean"

I'll be using the content in this thread along with the idiom thread to help make my point of it all being subjective to our own perceptions.

I'll be leaning heavy on my "don't be a hero based on your own (mis) understanding and over clean people's floors"..

We don't necessarily get things clean. We get them cleaner than they were before.

 

[Mikey P]

We don't necessarily get things clean. We get them cleaner than they were before.

what if we create more bacteria than the was before we arrived?

 

[Cleanworks]

what if we create more bacteria than the was before we arrived?

Then there is probably an issue with your equipment or your chemistry.

 

[Mikey P]

Then there is probably an issue with your equipment or your chemistry.

Please explain to me in a strictly scientific way, how you can eliminate or not cause further bacterial growth when the carpet it's backing, the pad and the subfloor are soaked in urine and you're just sort of kind of in a way rinsing the yarns, all the while adding heat and moisture to everything below...

Let's get some facts out of the way, no you are not getting an effective disinfectant to every area, no you are not flushing out all the urine from all three layers, and the more attempts you make, the deeper your hot and ineffective cleaning solution goes, its continuing the growth in this now excessively wet and continuously humid environment for days on end..


Please do not repost water claw or CLO2 sales material...

 

[Cleanworks]

Please explain to me in a strictly scientific way, how you can eliminate or not cause further bacterial growth when the carpet it's backing, the pad and the subfloor are soaked in urine and you're just sort of kind of in a way rinsing the yarns, all the while adding heat and moisture to everything below...

Let's get some facts out of the way, no you are not getting an effective disinfectant to every area, no you are not flushing out all the urine from all three layers, and the more attempts you make, the deeper your hot and ineffective cleaning solution goes, its continuing the growth in this now excessively wet and continuously humid environment for days on end..


Please do not repost water claw or CLO2 sales material...

I'm not talking about urine soaked carpet. There is no way to clean urine soaked carpet, pad and subfloor. I've done enough restoration to see carpet I've ripped out with massive staining on the back side, underlay completely rotted and even concrete floors needing to be cleaned and sealed before replacing the flooring. I'm just talking about cleaning in general. Your cleaning method in general should be capable of reducing contaminants and not contributing bacterial growth to the mix. Which means using proper drying techniques. In low to moderate climates, it merely takes utilizing your equipment properly and making sure it is working up to manufacturer's specs. In high humidity you may want to utilize fans or built-in AC or ventilating systems to remove the excess humidity.